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Perfect. All right. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Lori and I'm joined by Tanya right over here in the corner. And our supervisor, Dr. Edward, lie here today from Career Services. And we have a fantastic panel of hosts, our speakers today. I know this is going to just be some great information that we're gonna be talking about about how to come out at work. Because especially today on national coming out day, a lot of times this question comes up is like, do you even have to, how do you, how do you then interact with your colleagues after is it even a concern? And I think especially over the last year or so where we've seen more and more legislation come about that has been Anti LGBTQ plus. And then how does that impact you in the work environment as well?

So I will do a brief introduction of our panelists and then we'll jump right into the fantastic discussion that I knew were going to have. So first I'm going to introduce a Grey Nebel. He is a student on the Delano campus majoring in English and French. His research include the development of gender-neutral grammar and gendered languages, glitch, feminism and transgender identities. And Grey is engaged in student culture by holding leadership positions and several clubs and organizations. He stays very busy working with the Safe Zone Committee and tutoring through the language labs and writing center. Off campus. He works as a public servant through the elections division of Gwinnett County Government. He's staying very busy lately. Grey assists various administrative and outreach efforts to ensure transparent and free electoral process. After graduation, he aspires to complete postgraduate studies in sociolinguistics and pursue a career in political advocacy.

I know he's been doing a lot more sense then, but I'll go on to our next speaker, Dr. Olivier LeBlond, and I apologize, Dr. LeBlond, I studied German, use a lot of French in here, so I might not be able to say, Well, you said my name perfectly say, oh, well then that's good. I got one thing right? So Dr. LeBlond is the associate department head and associate professor of French and the Department of Modern and Classical Languages here at 91¸£Àûµ¼º½. He's published the French, has been published in the French review. A lot of that's in French. He contributed chapters in it. Okay, see us more French. I apologize that I have to deal with queerness in general in the Francophone world. The best way of putting it. He's a member of 91¸£Àûµ¼º½’s Gender Studies Council and is committed to creating a safer campus for students and faculty of the LGBTQIA plus community. Through his involvement in the Safe Zone trainings. He also served as Director of French and Francophone studies of the Northeast Modern Language Association. Association?

Yes, that's it. Okay. But you shouldn't, you shouldn't do German. I can do German. You know, that's about enough. His Latin languages is, it is, it is last, but of course, obviously not least is Michelle Zignago is a Senior Art Director with checkmark Communications, which is the in-house creative agency for Nestle Purina pet care in St. Louis, Missouri. So thank you for joining us all the way from Missouri. It's fantastic. That's the good thing about doing these things on Zoom is we can't afford to fly you in. So this is the next best thing. Michelle has been with checkmark and Nestle Purina for over 20 years, developing inspired designs for a variety of premium pet food brands. And their projects include retail displays, packaging, digital advertising, directing shoots for stills and video, branding and experiential marketing. Little bit of everything. Fantastic. She's a University of Kansas graduate with years of experience in marketing. And Michelle has been a sought-after board member of transparent new city school and others, and with a son in his last year of college, she and her wife are currently adjusting to being empty nesters. And in her free time, Michelle enjoys travel, is a self-professed museum junkie and a longtime movie buff.

So I definitely love the movie stuff too. So yeah. Thank you all three of you for being here today. Fantastic. I really appreciate you taking your time for this very important topic because I think again, as we were saying at the beginning, challenging enough to be yourself in the workplace. And then when you have, especially in certain environments where it's not sometimes the friendliest environments. Here we hear this talk of being your genuine self.

Well, how can you be your genuine self if you're worried about how people are gonna be interacting with you. So I'm gonna go ahead and just start off with the first question that we have and thank you to all of our students who did submit questions for us. And gray, I will send us. Start with you first. What kind of skills do you think are important for being an ally of an LGBTQ plus colleague? Because a lot of times again, we hear about, well, you should be an ally. What does that look like in the workplace? Yeah. I'll go ahead and get started.

So hi everyone. My name is Grey. And I guess just some skills I think are really important. Active listening and active allyship. I think that ally, especially in the workplace, is a verb, not a noun. So it really comes down to what are those little things you're doing in the office to make that space more accessible for me as a queer person. So I think that act of allyship, that act of solidarity is really important skills that need to just be tapped into. I also think, of course, that includes really good active listening skills and also the skills to peacefully address friendly address issues as they arise as an ally because you have a better chance of being listened to and responded to that. I do. As the queer worker. Now, pass it over to, I guess Michelle. Yeah. That's exactly what I was gonna go to next.

And Michelle, especially because I remember when you and I first met, you were talking about having truly inclusive work environment. How are your coworkers, strong allies in your eyes? Well, yeah, As I said, I work in a creative space. So by nature, definitely more open and accepting and a lot more LGBT people are always within my network and stuff. Purina. We work hard to have diversity and inclusion is part of our tenants to having a safe and happy work environment. I did reach out to a friend of mine who is does great ally ship. And I just asked her for some comments. And two of them really resonated. A lot of them build it to build on what Grace said. But two of them that I think are important worth repeating. And if I could read these to you, remember that the absence of notable prejudice or even hostility in a workplace does not equate a supportive environment. Deliberately create a support environment. Smile at people. Visual cues are powerful and can build a bridge before people even say Hello. My friend has a favorite pin that she likes to wear. It's a trans flag and the shape of a heart. And she has spoken to several total strangers like they were old friends just because they saw that on her shirt, it opened up dialogues and stuff. So essentially don't remain neutral. Make it known that you see and value people.

And the other piece is that sometimes people want to be too strong of allies and kinda drive into that space and sometimes create a little more trouble. Don't try to fix everything. You can't take an action on someone else's behalf might make things worse. If you want to know how to help ask the person and the LGBTQ plus community and see what they need. Know how you can best support them. The last thing you wanna do is amplify the struggle of somebody's going through and make it difficult. As far as that goes, that would make it harder for people like me to trust those who identify as allies. So that's this. It'd be cool and wait for instructions. So those are the two pieces I'd build on what Grey said. Oh, fantastic.

And so of course, Dr. LeBlond as well, what what would you say are some of the best ways to create that supportive and inclusive environment. But I think that for me I am lucky to be in an environment which is academia, which Bayers since it's fairly open. But to bounce back to getting back to what Michelle was saying because I think that pretty much gray and Michelle said everything that there is. But the point that Michelle was making that yes, it's good to be an ally, but also don't speak for people. Like give People room enough. And that's also a way of showing your allyship in the sense that you don't want to talk for people. And I think it is the same for any kind of marginalized group. Anyway. Yes, you can be an ally, but it doesn't mean that you have to speak for them, you need to meet, give them have their own voice.

That's really what Michelle was one of the last points that she was making. So it is great that you want to be supportive. It is great that you want to be an ally, but never talk for people. Just like in concert with, in conjunction with people rather than talking for people. And the history of the little pin. That's what I was mentioning earlier before we started recording right here on this campus, we have a way of showing that days with the Safe Zone trainings that you mentioned since raise a member of it. I am a member of it as well. And so we do have those little stickers. So there's always something like be identifiable as an ally. I think that is what is very important. They most definitely, yeah. Yeah. I think it's so important. Especially everything that you all said. But I think the one I really liked the most was trying not to speak for people as if you were the expert because you read an article or he saw a news story, or your intentions are well intended, but you could be causing more harm than good. I think that's really important for people to understand.

So Dr. LeBlond, I'll start with you on this next one. I thought this was a really good one that came from one of our students. Just in general, do you think it's necessary to come out at work or should it remain private? Is it something you really should do? I've had students that have said, well, I'm transgender, but do I need to tell people where I'm working? I'm working in an environment that's a fairly traditional environment and I just don't know if I'll be accepted there. Do I even have to say anything? Well, that's a great question. And I think coming out, no matter what you're coming out journey is if it's coming out as gay, lesbian, trans person is such a personal journey to begin with that you should only come out when you are ready to come out. When does that happen? It happens when, you know, you are in a safe space that is conducive to you telling other people what your sexual orientation is, what your gender identity is. So to make it simpler, you do not have to come out if you don't feel safe enough to come out at work. There are times when you may not have a choice and because of some cliches when it comes to certain behaviors or some things like this, people may just assume that you are one way or another. But yet again, if you don't feel like coming out because you don't feel safe enough. Don't come out. Again. It is such a personal journey. So I would say that it should remain private until you feel comfortable and safe enough to come out. It is not necessary.

And unfortunately sometimes you outed by other people that actually happened to me that was not malicious at all. But it was like, this is my friend is going to come work at 91¸£Àûµ¼º½ you will see and him and his partner or him and his boyfriend. And so that's something that was done for me. Even though it was not again, there was not any kind of malice behind it. Yet. It did not give me the choice to come out to the people at my workplace, which was here at 91¸£Àûµ¼º½ actually. So again, going back to the fact that I'm lucky enough to be in academia. So even though I did not get that option, I am able to be who I am openly. So yeah, I think it all comes down to safety, safe space. If you feel confident and safe, you should be able to come out only if you want to.

Michelle, how about, how about for you as well? Again, thinking about that environment that you're in, luckily, you have a fairly inclusive environment already. But do you feel that you were, some of your colleagues feel that they have to come out or have to say or do they decide to keep it to themselves? I yeah. In this day and age, like no. I just think like no. People just come to the table just being who they are, their authentic selves. Like I just ran into a client of mine. I mean, it was new I was put on to a new team and stuff and as we're meeting up and then just before the meeting where to start just chit-chatting. And he mentioned that he and his husband went out this weekend to do a blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, wow, just so casual. I'm like, Oh, that's really cool. I've lived. So we bonded and stuff.

But let's backup. Even 20 years ago when I was starting out in the career, also in the creative environment, I'll accept the Bible. I was still out it and it was a terrible feeling because it was more so of a scoop of guests. Who is this person over here that we knew is with this person? It was just it was embarrassing and I was young and wasn't sure how to handle it. I just shut down. But then I will say as much as that made me mad about that event. I at that point stopped pretending, hiding, being invasive. And I was just living my trees because I figured I just assumed that point. The whole city you probably knew or people in my experience would have known. So why should I make up stuff? So I was I was out then and I've been totally happy ever since. And as life is rolled on to today, I mean, I think we're definitely in a more accepting space, so I just figured it's your own personal decision. In your work environment.

Most people places seem pretty, pretty open and decent, but there are places that you might be a little bit concerned. It's your own personal journey. I would recommend that you just do what you feel is right, and just you own your story. Like, you know, like you said earlier that we don't want somebody else to have gossip get out there and then you've lost control of your story, you own it. And so I would say that workplaces are safer than you think and you would know best in that situation to come out. So excellent. Thank you so much. So of course, great question then, what is your experience been? Whether it of course, as a student and as you said, a public servant, working in an environment which can be a stressful environment to just working with the public and things like that. What is your experience been?

Yeah. I really resonated with what Dr. LaBlond, Michelle said. I've also been outed. I had the fortunate not be out-of-network, but I was added in my high school and I was added to my family as well to various points in my life. And it was a very dehumanizing experience for me. I really was very uncomfortable because I was a part of my identity that I was still learning and figuring out that I no longer had the ability to internally have a conversation with myself about it was already out in the public. People already knew about it. My family already knew about it before even have the ability to learn how they felt about queer and trans issues. They already knew how I identified. So it's a very dehumanizing experience for me. With that being said, I didn't really had a lot of thoughts about the question. I think it's a very good question, but I also think it's a very nuanced question. For myself as a trans person. I personally thought it was necessary for me to come out because everything we do in the workplace has a gender connotation, right down to how we email Mr. or Miss write that has a gender to it. I find that in both my employment on campus as a student worker and what I do in Gwinnett County, I find that tasks get assigned based on how you perceive people.

I noticed a lot of our clerical workers tend to be a woman. In a lot of her labor workers tend to be men. And I noticed that even within that there's some divisions for a lot of the positions of power are going to the people with power who are typically men. And I noticed that a lot of the day-to-day tasks of who's handling these conflict resolution versus who's doing the emails, who's designing the fires. I do find that a lot of our day-to-day tasks are gendered. For me since I started working there before the beginning of my medical transition, I did find it necessary for me. I also found it necessary because I realized how pervasive gender is in that workspace. And that's not to say it's limit, it's just my one workspace and it's definitely not a jab at my employer because I have the fortune of working fair, very progressive County in a very progressive, very clear workspace where a lot of us do identify as LGBT. I see the same trend here and I see the same trend out my other employment where even the simple job tasks we do get gendered for me where I was and where I still am in my journey as a trans person, I thought it was necessary for me, but I have not come out with my sexuality at that office because to me it's just not necessary.

I spent enough with my personal life there as is. I don't want to bring any more of it into that workplace, but that's also just my dynamic with that job. So I don't think it's necessary, but at the same time, I don't think it should remain private. I really was not resonating with that question because I do think we're in October wherein Pride Month. Right. And I think it is just that I think we need to have the ability to take pride in our identity. I think coming out is a personal choice. I don't think it's necessary, but I also don't think it inherently should remain private if that makes any sense. Because those identities to reach the public.

Yeah. Yeah, most definitely no great, great insights from all of you. Honestly. I think it also goes back to it's so sad that it was, you experience something that was so dehumanizing. And that's really sad, kinda, Honestly, it brings us to that next question that I've got for you. How do you see if there's, Do you feel that there's more or less acceptance of LGBTQ population? Because like I said at the beginning, we're seeing in some states more and more legislation against LGBTQ plus. And so then that creates obviously a lot of fear, a lot of concern. But yet at the same time, there are areas where everyone's like, Yeah, I mean that's what the government's doing, but here, don't worry about it, just be yourself. I'll start with you, Michelle. What are you seeing in terms of just kinda as a whole in the workplace? Even from friends or colleagues. What is it? More or less acceptance, more or less concerns, especially as we move forward in some of the political races that we're seeing throughout the country. Yeah, I think just to say to go back to all the legislation, the fact that there is all this legislation means that there is a lot more acceptance happening and that's kinda ruffling people and they're putting together stupid bills to try to combat it.

Although it just keeps bringing it more of the discussion and having those hard, hard talks with people of like, why do you have the problem with this way? Are you supporting this bill? What's wrong with you? But no, in the word community, I just know. I just yeah, I think it's just getting better and better and better. I went to my son, went to a real progressive school where they had lots of families like mine there. And it was just a little moment slice of life to just walk through the halls of the school and their community and feel like i'm, I'm equal to everybody else. I mean, that's a weird way to say it, but I mean, but there was just no issue there. I've got my family, there's these other families, whatever this is, a perfect Kumbaya world. That was about 10:15 years ago. I'm seeing the workplace more like that now, you know where we're having some of these candid discussions. I'd like a piano. We have these listening sessions that we've been doing for a couple of years now for all different types.

We have for Gay Pride Month, we've got that for October, boy, I've just finished up the Hispanic community and BIPOC and indigenous. So we've had all these different listening sessions and it's just been fantastic. And I like God, I feel so lucky that I'm open to this. I have these experiences, you know, 1015 years ago, didn't have anything like that. No, I do feel that things are being more accepted even though I know political situation in the last four or five years, it has been pretty volatile, but I'm continuing to hope that things are gonna get better. But overall, I'm pretty positive about it. Excellent, excellent.

So, Grey, I'll go back to you, especially because you work in elections. So same thing, you know, how, how, how are you seeing any change, any improvements or do you feel that we're sliding backwards? Yeah. Michelle, I had a similar thought to you, but I looked at it much more pessimistic. I do think if we look at the history of what's been going on with the LGBTQ movement. I do think that there's been a lot of progress and I do think that there is a lot more acceptance than even 101520 years ago. But if I look at just the past couple of years or even just the past couple of months, I do see significantly less. So to me when I look at where I am and where my community is as trans people in the US now versus even two or three years ago, it's two very different worlds.

There's so much less acceptance. Now, I feel for trans people at the very minimum, if not the rest of the LGBTQ community in the US. So while I do feel like significant progress has been made, I do feel like a lot of it is getting challenged in a lot of the contempt that did always exist is becoming much more louder and much more pervasive because it's happening in much more subtle ways. I do feel like the quantity of LGBTQ, of Anti LGBTQ bills is spiking statistically it's at some of the highest it's ever been. Hate crimes against the trans community and murders of black and brown trans woman is the highest it's ever been. So while I do see societally, more and more understanding of LGBTQ issues and I do see progression over the past 56 years. I do feel as though we are on the precipice of another lavender scare. That to me is honestly really something that under it's me just because of how I've seen how far we've come, but I also see how much further we need to go. And at the same time, we're having to reconcile with the knowledge that I could lose my rights. I could lose my access to health care. I could lose my protections in the workplace, which I didn't even get until 2020.

In 2020, trans people got workplace protections. And now we're facing the threat of losing or health care. While again, I do see some progression. It's not about I think it's probably the best way to put it. Right. Right. And Dr. Lovelock, that mean I'm gonna kinda spring this one on your a little bit, especially because I think you have a fantastic international point of view where you could compare it from your home country of France to the US. Where do you see maybe some of the differences? Where, again, are things improving? Even Europe, or is it kind of goes into trends of how the US is going? Well, there's this great thing called the rise of fascism that is getting a little global right? So unfortunately, even though there's a lot of progress that has been made, like e.g. France had adopted same-sex marriage earlier than the US. France was 2013, if I remember, well, the US was 2015. You had other countries that you would not even think of that already had that kind of right in those kinds of rights like e.g. Spain. Which if you think about Spain, you think very Catholic, probably conservative.

Yet they had same-sex marriage lot longer than we did. Even though we do see progress. I actually I'm going back to something that Michelle mentioned when she went to her son's school and she felt more equal just to quit. And I'm saying that because she using the quiz because she is the quotes too. And I think that at the end of the day, that's what those fights are about. It's about equality.

And we're not just talking about, I want to be equal to assist heteronormative person. It's leaved equality are because that's my understanding of it, that everyone just wants to be equal like we should all be on the same level, no matter our gender identity, sexual orientation, color of skin, wherever it is. We still have a lot of work to do what no matter what. And as Gary reminded us, like we have is slew of anti trans bills that are being looked at, examined, asked sometimes some of them are just revolving, revolting when Union, like giving the right to have trans students be dressed to check what their genitals are. Those are things that are being discussed to be passed as law in some states, which is just disgusting. Nyc whatever genitals someone is born with is none of your business. But overall, has there been progress? Yes, of course, we cannot deny that. But at the same time for some reason there's this specific population of the acronym that is being targeted right now, really, the T of the LGBTQIA plus is really being targeted.

And it's just a projection of the fears. And we keep hearing about the work agenda. Like work is a man, everything is, I think it's just a projection of the fears of people who are more conservative than seeing society change and afraid of see any change because it's different from what they were used to. And there's also slowly realizing that they're losing their power and their grip on there used to be able to control, right? But that's also why pride in June, Pride history month in October, that all those fights to Neil still very important because again, we want to reach that those equal lives, like lived equality for everyone. And if there's still a lot of fighting to do. And I said that Michelle Bull probably wants to say something. Yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna say To build on that. Do you all both Dr. LeBlanc and grow, do you think that nowadays you feel that there's just more kids in middle school, high school coming out. Whereas like when I was in high school and into college back in the eighties, last century. I can't even remember even being homophobic myself because I wasn't understanding because it was, everything was smashed down and it's a nobody Everybody was very anti gay, but it excites me that kids feel comfortable and safe within their own little school communities to come out and I don't know, do you guys feel that as well?

But I think more people are being more expressive. And I think that's a great thing. And that's why it's going to continue to grow in that, that area. Great. Take this one because that's the beauty of his generation. Gen Z. Talk about it. I think even for me because I graduated high school in 2019. So I went to school much more recently, but it was still like a very hush, hush. Again, I went to a very, very progressive high-school. So there was no issue or no qualm about someone being so when identifying as LGBTQ, it was just you just don't talk about it, right? Because people talk at a reach your family, then you'll have a problem, right. Case in point. That's what happened to me. But on the flip side, I do see nowadays, like my sisters generation, she just turned 132 sheets, a little bit younger than me, I'm 21. They're very comfortable talking to each other.

Comfortable with questioning their sexuality, very comfortable questioning their gender orientation. They know who to talk to, and they're all in solidarity with each other. It's like I see in my sister's phone group, my sister's questioning her sexuality right now. All of her friends are supporting her and she's openly talking about it. She's having phone calls, she's having texts conversations, she's having conversations on social media where people about it. She's very open. All of her friends are very open about it. And I've had the privilege of watching my sister, just interacting with people normally as she went at school and she's introducing herself with her name and pronouns, which is great. And that's not something I knew I could do ten years ago. Right. So for me, that's definitely a sign that there is some progress.

And there is a sign that there is more understanding among the younger, among the youth today, which is very, very great. And I do think as well, That's what's causing this massive influx of anti-trust legislation and anti trans violence just differently call it what it is, what these hate crimes are. Reaction to. Dr. LeBlond said it's reactionary and its projection. And I think it is a reaction to the fact that we now more than ever are more prominent and we are very, very loud. As a group of people were very open about our identities, were very confident in them.

And people of all ages, but especially the youth, are more comfortable discussing these topics publicly. And I do think that this rise and anti trans hate in particular is in response to that. And that is why I say, even though there is undeniably progress, I do feel as though we're at the precipice of undoing some of that progress. Especially for trans people like we are so historically underserved this community as Americans, but also in the LGBTQ community. And we are as well. The first targets we start there because we subvert the most and then it moves on. Great. If you look at the fifties and sixties, a lot of that LGBT movements started by black and brown trans women because they were the ones who are hurting and suffering the most, because most of society focused on trans issues. And that is why again, I do look at what we're seeing right now as a really big red flag for the future of the entire LGBTQ community because history repeats itself. So I do see more progression and I do see more knowledge. In some spaces.

I do see more acceptance. I do feel as though we are at this very critical stage right now. Just kinda go back to the question where the risk undoing some of it, if that makes any sense. Oh, yeah. Most definitely. Most definitely. And honestly, that Goes into our next question about, as we see, celebrities in particular who come out. Because I remember, I think Michelle, you and I are probably fairly close in age and I'm an eighties kid as well. And I remember when it was huge news with Ellen came out. It was on the show. Everyone was like, Oh my gosh. And use of liquid said it was the gossip. That's how people found out. Because it was gossip. It was something that people would talk about with celebrities and musicians. And it was always the most scandalous thing. And now when I know, when, if I hear of a usually my daughter has to tell me about some celebrity because I don't keep up with half of them. But she'll say, Oh, they're this. And I'm like, okay, it's no big deal. It's just, well, that's just whatever and what's their music like? Or what movie are they in?

Do you find that having these kind of national figures, especially when it comes to celebrities, do you find that that helps? Or do you find that that just creates more gossip and noise and kinda distracts Dr. LeBlond and I'll start with you on that one. Well well, just today, you mentioned that I was like, I just read that today, three people came out, did not respect what Madonna is when I'm talking about Some queer icon to i, does it make it easier for employers or employees to come out? I don't think we're going back to should you come out anyways. So that would be again, if you feel safe to come out, come out, sometimes you may not be given a choice or sometimes, as Michelle mentioned, sometimes it's a non issue and you're just like, oh, well me and my partner in their conversation, you will drop it and that's kinda be aware of coming out to and you don't necessarily have to say Hi, my name is and I'm gay and lesbian, I'm trends.

Because you just want it to be a It's just a part of your life, so it isn't an issue for you. So why create an issue? And I'm kind of going back to the question that was right before because I have the list also includes the atmosphere of inclusion and regardless of personal religious views, because I think all those things kind of intertwine, right?

I think if you want to support people and if you love people no matter what. But again, that shouldn't be an issue. Is traditionally religion like the base of religion is to love everyone. I'm assuming it's the same case, Greg and maybe confirmed for Judaism, but at least if you're Christian, the basis of it is love everyone like your neighbor. So sometimes I, to be fair, I don't like all of my neighbors. If they can make a dad joke button, you know what? At the end of the day, if you are really accepting and if you really want to practice your religion in practice what you preach to use the expression. You will accept people no matter how they are. Having. Public figures come out to, again, go back to those people coming out, I think does help advance mentalities.

Because it's like okay, it's more and more people are coming out. But you'll also back to those converse conservative people. Well less accepting. Also think that is part of some sort of agenda that Hollywood has or that the music industry. Everyone's gay now and it's just a trend and like quotes Whenever very, very famous. Unfortunately, political figures in Georgia imaginary Taylor Greene who says that these straight rays is going instinct and that within five days integration there won't be any straight people left anymore. Oh, Mark. Well, you know what? An algebra, you know, and I think that having more and more celebrities being comfortable with who they are to and is normalizing something that is just normal period, you shouldn't have to normalize something that is normal. And Gray was mentioning that in the fifties and sixties, that kid was already something like you had all those underground networks for people to be able to get together and you still have you already have perimeters at the time I think about my Cary Grant, maybe I'm not super good. Old Hollywood, e.g. who was like, That's nice ladies men and movies. But yet in his private life, was a gay men and was very famous, very known for being a gay man.

But at the time he was not able to come out because society was not as accepting as it is today. And I'm rambling on someone else. That's okay. Well, great. I actually wanted to ask you specifically because very recently for those that like the Umbrella Academy, I don't know agree if you've ever watched the Umbrella Academy okay. Again, my daughter so I'm able to keep up with the kids. But very recently, one of their main actors, Elliot Page, had transitioned and. I did find it interesting because again, back when I was a kid, that would have been the most scandalous thing. And now it didn't seem created some gossip and some celebrity buzz and things like that. But I don't know, I just didn't see it be as hateful. But then again, maybe that's where then society starts getting scared, gone away. People are treating this as, okay, great. Do you have any take on especially celebrities that make that transition very public? Yeah, I went Eliot's top surgeon. That's my response. He looks great. But no, I I do think even though, I guess kinda bringing it back to the topic of this discussion, the workplace, we like to think of work as very separate from our personal lives.

But that's really not the case because we are all still people that work community. We're all carrying Arab, our prejudices and our identities with us to that workspace. So I do think that the more celebrities that come out and the more people that get exposed by extension, too, happy, alive LGBTQ people, the more acceptance were able to indirectly foster in a workspace, the more you see it, the more you see. Especially in the case of transactors, the more you see trans people pushing that narrative. That all trans people are like gross kinda files or all trans people are going to die at age 35 out of a hate crime. The moreVC trans people pushing that narrative and you're seeing youthful alive, really great looking famous trans people just were met with acceptance and who are just like sharing themselves thriving inside and outside of their art form, the more it really pushes that narrative for us as trans people.

And you can say the same thing about the extent of the rest of the LGBTQ community as well. So the more influential people you have coming out and being open and competent about their sexuality. The more we as society become acclimated to this idea, which means the more people who are able to understand what our identity looks like and what LGBTQ stories are really all about. How it's not all that doing gloomy. See it being portrayed ads because of the faculty do carry those ideas and misconceptions with us to work because we are so all people, we don't just turn off our thoughts and emotions at 08:00 A.M. and back on at five were there the whole day?

They're there with us the whole day. Right. So you're bringing those in there with you. So the more they get challenged, the more acceptance you begin to possess, and the more you bring into the workspace as well. I don't think there's a direct relationship between celebrities and your average workspace. I do think that there is an indirect symbiotic relationship between them. And that the more people come out, the more people, you know, the more celebrities that come out directly causes more people to understand and accept and LGBTQ issues and understand how she'd be tq identities, which does by extension create a more accepting workplace. Because at least now and you can make like very like Elliot, right? I know someone I can relate you to in a positive way. And that does create more acceptance.

Excellent, Excellent. If I may go gray mix a great point. And the example of ADL pages is actually a great example too. But I think it will be interesting when we talk about people like Elliot Page being a trans actor. But just as an actor, who cares, you know, like this is the first time that a trans woman is getting. I'm playing a trans woman is a woman. She's playing the role of a woman, but they'll still have to have that tag added on trans women and trans men. And actually on the show, I did enjoy, because I do watch the show, I did enjoy the fact that they have the character of Page's character and I cannot remember his name on the show right now, but it came out to his brothers and sisters and I wasn't an issue. There was just like, Okay, cool. Then they moved on to, well, we have to save the world again. But, but to me I think that those examples and I like that graduate to like bring it back to the workplace. But that his, his workplace like a stages is workplace. And that it's still like this is a trans man, trans actor playing the role of a man.

Once we're gonna get rid of those labels, especially when it comes to trans people. I think that's also going to help us in the workplace as well. Because we're not going to have this whispers. And you know that Bob is actually a trans man and not being was not born male at birth or something like that. So when it's really becoming, going back to my idea of IQ, when it's a non-issue then normalizing because it's a non-issue. And I'm sure Michelle probably has more to add. No, no. Actually, you guys have covered it. All that I would just say is that with celebrities come out, whether it's entertainment music or even like, let's just say even legislative people and stuff like that. It just, it helps bring up conversations in your workplace or in your church groups or communities and stuff like that. And it allows people who claim that they know and you have people like that, that actually they do. You've actually loved this actor or this Eden musician your whole life and they've come out as the x or y. So that just says that it softens people who are, have a hard line. I think.

Against the LGBT community. So I was just going to add a point that back in the nineties, Michelangelo's signature Ellie, who is a journalist, would make it a point to celebrities. And just I think that started the whole thing of like Melissa average came out that she was afraid of what he would say, but it's just that things were starting to percolate and people were calling BS on just staying hidden in the closet and stuff for their careers. And I just think peoples just started saying, Yeah, Why are we doing this coming up more and more and more. I still think to today though it's still hard for men to come out. I don't know why. It's still, there. Still seems to be some machismo pushback that could cost them their career. So that's kind of a bummer. So definitely, definitely. And Michelle and I want to start with you on this one. I can't believe we're almost getting close to the end of our time. I mean, gosh, we've talked forever. I know is this is great. But I do want to go back to like you had mentioned, how your colleague wears a pen. So to say, hey, I'm an ally and I think sometimes people are afraid to be an ally because they worry if someone has a negative attitude Towards the LGBTQ population, then they're going to have to OK, and now we gotta get our fighting gloves on.

And yeah, you got to have this heated discussion or heated debate. I think sometimes people are afraid to be an ally. So what are some ways that people can kinda deal with those negative attitudes and feelings that a colleague might have. It still be that Ally. And then like you said, that you do not speak on behalf of an entire population, but to still be that Ally and try to help in the work environment when there are some of those negative attitudes that you might come into, Right? Right, right, right. Yeah. It depends on I mean, that's a big complicated thing. Question you ask. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just think that there's one piece is like what is an ally? It's like you said, is something that I have two armor up and then defend and everything. Now, ally means just being a friend. It can be just as easy as listening to somebody share their stories and, and just be human with one another and stuff. But in the other sense to that if you are out in another situation, somebody makes a comment that might be homophobic or negative. And you're not sure if the type of group that you're in stand up for it and shut the conversation down. Case in point. I was in a status meeting about a month ago. In this one person who is a higher-up person said made some comment about a client. I mean, just something that was somewhat homophobic or whatever.

And before I could say something like, What are you talking with? A friend next to me and a lesser position. Just shut that thing down. She just said, no, we're not going to we don't do that. I mean, it's like I was just shocked that she stood up and really just shut that conversation down. But it was really thrilled and happy then because I had no idea she was an ally and stuff. And so it may put that person wasn't made a comment, wasn't being like a hateful, horrible person. He was just making a scoop, a little comment that was out of place in the environment that we're in. So he that person isn't a horrible person, but just needed to know that he crossed a line. All that I have to say just shut it down as best as you can. Just say. I mean, you know, you're uncomfortable with it and there's nothing wrong with that. And that applies to anything beyond the LGBTQ spirit, spectrum and stuff. Just anything that seems inappropriate or out of place or just dumb comment. Could just say, shut it down. Just say I'm not comfortable with that and I'm not, you know, or just even switch topics to let them know that that's how it is. So excellent, excellent. And we are, since we're getting close to the end of our time, I want to make sure we didn't go over.

So I'm just going to throw out there. I'm going to start with you, gray. Is there anything else that you would like to share with the group today? Anything that we didn't cover or anything that any kind of parting words that you want to make sure that they go home with today? No, no. I mean, I think that's really it. I think we covered everything. So obviously thanks to everyone who attended and those who much later, but yeah, I think we've really covered everything. Excellent. Dr. LeBlond. I think that the last thing add probably is to be an ally. You also need to be aware of your own bias. Because sometimes even within the community itself, there is bias.

I remember when I was younger, I was like God by now gaining or how, how, how stupid jokes like this. And while that's not okay at the end of the day, so it is also important to realize that you may be biased. It is okay. We have some bias, but it's also active work. As Grey said, ally is not just a noun, it's also a verb. It's actually work that you need to do to get rid of that bias. And I think that what Michelle said, speak up. When you see that something is okay. Speak up. Do not speak for as we said. So e.g. do not go to HR straightaway for someone who was discriminated against without their knowledge, e.g. but be there for them and offer to be a support for them as well. But speak up in situations when they need it. Well, you need to speak up.

Excellent. Excellent, Michelle. So I'll let you close it out. Anything else you'd want to share? Yeah. I know that we're talking to a bunch of students that will be graduating and going on to workplaces and stuff. And what I want to say with all my years of experience, really seek out companies, corporations big or small, that have DEI statements that diversity equity inclusion is so important. And that you feel safe and if you're in, you get a job into a workplace and it just doesn't feel right or there's just something a little off. Leave it. Get your resume back out there and keep going until you find a place that is completely accepting and happy. I know that says, Oh, that doesn't exist, but no, you will find those spaces with decent people because your careers along one, you want to be happy, what you do and work can be stressful on its own. But if you have people around you, then that just makes it really unpleasant and it's its own stress. You won't like Sunday evening saying I got to go to work tomorrow. Just look for a happy space. It's out there, you'll find it.

And just make sure it is completely inclusive, culturally, racially, LGBT, all of that. It's out there. Bandwidth. Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate all of you being here today. Thank you everyone for joining us. And again, this will be loaded on our, onto our YouTube channel if you'd like to share it with friends and whatnot. So again, thank you, everyone. Fantastic discussion. Like I said, we could probably keep on going all night long, but I'm sure a few of you would like to get home and call it a day pretty soon, so thank you, everyone. I appreciate your time. I hope you-all have a great day. Awesome. Thank you so much.

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